hello...

[Deadman]

a short introduction :

hello, my name is Deadman. ( really, my road name, and there of course is a story ) really...
I am a member of our sister forum M1911.org. I have participated there for awhile and enjoy the place every much. the members are very knowlegable, helpful and above all respectful and courteous. I have learned alot. I also enjoy the diversity of opinion and spirited healthy debate. I have made a few " friends such as that is on the internet " and look forward to new ones here.

I have been a shooter for 30 years, have a CCW and have carried everyday, yes everyday, for about 24 of those. I did not come to shooting through my father, the military or law enforcement. I shoot around 10K rounds a year, have trained with certified respected instructors such as Gabe Suarez, and practice live fire and dummy magazines snap caps religiously. I like steel guns, leather holsters and wood grips.
I belong to the NRA and am somewhat locally active. I am a member of the second best forum on the net, Sigforum.
it has been suggested by a well respected member of M1911 that I take a comment I made over there to this site. I believe it was misunderstood or perhaps a little too political. oh well, sorry. I speak my mind.

rest assured, I do contribute, but be patient with me I am not finished yet. we can agree to disagree.

respectfully,
Dead

[Dial 1911 for Help]

Welcome, Dead. We look forward to your insights and opinions. The more the merrier. I've had posts that I didn't think were particularly political get tossed on m1911 as well, but that's what this forum is for, so feel free to speak your mind.

[Deadman]

thanks 911, and don't worry abut me speakin up...

[Dial 1911 for Help]

Over there, you posted:

I for one think our requirements [referring to FL CCW] are not stringent enough. while a " shall issue state ", our course as a pre requisite prior to issue has standards that are very minimal.

Which raises a couple questions in my mind.

1) As I'm sure you're aware, many states in the US allow open carry, and in most cases there's no qualification per se, maybe some defined locations where you can't carry, but no classes, fingerprints, background check, etc. First consider this from a logical point of view -- if a person can be trusted to carry in a holster, why is it the state suddenly suspects him of murderous intent / bad aim, etc. just because he wants to carry his weapon in a fanny pack or in his pocket? The other line of reasoning is inductive; in all the states allowing open carry with no pre-qualificaion, and the ones that require either little or no qualification for a CCW, or don't require a CCW at all (AK, VT), the blood is hardly running in the streets. What specific evidence leads you to believe current FL standards are too relaxed?

2) You say that you support the Second Amendment, meaning I assume that you agree with most here (and SCOTUS) that it refers to the right of an individual to keep and bear arms with no connection to service in an organized or unorganized militia. If it is to be an individual right, how do you square that fact with any requirements which put the government in possession of a list of those who exercise that right? Would you support a law that requires you to register with the government before exercising your First Amendment right? How about the Fourth? Fifth? It really seems like a matter of principle.

[Aguila Blanca]

http://www.gun-politics.org/showthread.php?p=3291#post3291

[Deadman]

well, I can see I opened up a can of worms...

" What specific evidence leads you to believe current FL standards are too relaxed? "

my specific experience with the class given by NRA instructors, and observation of the some of the students there. four of those students readily admitted to never having handled or fired a gun before. we were given the basics, safe gun handling, an explanation of the different types of guns, and some legal points about ownership and carry. range commands, rules and protocol were covered last.

my first turnoff came when the lead instructor who brought examples of pistols and revolvers was passing them around the class. the gun would make it's way from student to student and back to the front of the class and the table he taught from. being at the back of the class I would take the gun back to the instructor. numerous students, perhaps six out of twenty swept other students with muzzles and were not even politely admonished for doing so. one even looked down the barrel. some were pulling triggers. it was as if I was in a gun shop with new counter help, and immediately after the " rules " were preached.

do I care that some had not fired a weapon before ? no. but given the audience I expected tighter monitoring of the situation.

after the last gun, a .357 revolver was passed around I took it back to the front and the lead instructor. he sat it down on the table and talked some more. about five minutes later he picked up the gun and in demonstrating trigger pull immediately pulled the trigger five times.
when he asked the class what he had just done, I raised my hand and answered that the weapon had been out of his control for sometime, handled by numerous people and he did not check the guns condition before demonstrating. breaking rule number one. he admitted he had not done this to check the classes awareness of the rule or his infraction.

there are more class no no's but, lets move to the range.

here we were required to do live fire. I belive it was ten rounds slow fire, and five rounds " as fast as you can pull the trigger ". for a total of fifteen, at a distance of fifteen feet. if I remember correctly an NRA B 8, 25 yard timed and rapid fire target. 21" X 24" w/ a 5 1/2" black.
unsafe weapon handling just moved outside...
the second instructor took over for the range work. again the range protocols and range commands were reviewed.
the most serious sin of omission here was a malfunction of a pistol, without a stand down being called. the instructor tried to clear the malfunctioning pistol, at the firing line while his other instructor watched from behind the line. this is not a tap, rack, re assess but actually trying to disassemble a locked up pistol, on a " hot line ".

after the student completed the range work the targets were taken and given to the second instructor. the targets were not reviewed, simply set aside and the certificate signed and given to the student.

do I think that only those who scored above average should get a certificate completing a requirement for a permit ?
no.

however, I would suggest that hitting the target with two or three rounds out of fifteen, under the conditions described, does not demonstrate even a minimum proficiency.

so, perhaps I stated my thoughts incorrectly.

I do believe that some students who were passed, should not have been given certificates. what service did we do them ?
most anyone on this or any firearm related site is an enthusiast, or becoming one...

do you feel comfortable knowing that someone who has not fired a gun before, does not own one, and is not even minimally skilled in firearm handling is now one step closer to carrying one ?

I do feel that Florida's class requirements for obtaining a CCW are not stringent enough.
the class should be longer, and have more range time with more rounds fired. classes should not be so large or instructors so few that individual attention cannot be given to students who obviously require it.
paying your money, showing up and surviving the class are simply not enough...

as I said, perhaps I should have stated my concerns differently, and was just witness to a very poor learning experience.

[Aguila Blanca]

How does any of that address the clear and unambiguous language of the 2nd Amendment that the right (not "privilege") to keep and bear arms SHALL not be infringed? Do you agree that regulation equals infringement?

And how does any of what you described address the fact that many states allow unlicensed open carry (and two allow unlicensed concealed carry) and yet those states don't have any worse records of accidental discharges than Florida? Nor does Florida, with its "lax" standards, have any worse record than states like Texas with a significantly more rigorous qualification regimen.

[Dial 1911 for Help]

I believe that in most states, CCW instructors are required to be certified by the NRA. I'd recommend that you make a complaint to the NRA about this guy and describe what happened. They might warn him and he might tighten things up. If not, and enough people complain, they might pull his certification as an instructor.

But, it sounds like what you're describing is a badly run class by a lax instructor, rather than loose "standards". I think AB and I are interpreting "standards" to mean criteria imposed from without and used in a pass/fail manner (although people do set standards for their own behavior). Industry standards, legal standards, etc.

If you're coming at this from the point of view of "Well, if you're going to teach a class, do it right" then we have no argument. If your point is "The state of Florida is accepting CCW training certifications from a guy who can't run a decent class, and this invalidates Florida CCW" you still run into the fact that in all the states with easier standards than Florida, or no standards at all, people aren't falling like flies. What about the variation with the way open carry is handled? How can you justify that?

[d90king]

Folks! This is General Discussion forum, it is not the place to discuss state level legal issues or political or legal issues actually. Please carry on your discussion in that area of the forum.
Thank you.