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d90king
12th April 2009, 10:48
Normally I have found Juan to be a little more reasonable than this......

Time to End to America’s ‘Lock and Load’ Mania

America is an amazing country.

“We The People” respond to changing realities — be they shifting opportunities for innovation or dealing with a new terror threat. Our leaders and our culture must adjust to changing times quickly or lose power and money. This is a country that is so innovative it has even amended its most basic document: the Constitution. We’ve emancipated slaves and given women the right to vote.

American-style change can come in shocking bursts.

When it comes to political change it is easy to forget, given the current dominance by Democrats in Washington, that Republicans controlled the House, the Senate and the White House as recently as 2006.

For a cultural example of quick change take a look at public attitudes towards gambling. In the last 25 years we have taken gambling out of the grip of the criminal underworld. Now there are state lotteries almost everywhere, and scratch-off tickets as well as Power Ball can be found in the corner store.

As amazing as all those changes have been I am even more amazed at one reality that has not changed in America.

For some reason this nation’s leaders cannot stop teenaged drug dealers, certifiable nuts and criminals from easily getting a gun.

In fact, that idea is so far off the map that in January a bill in Congress calling for individuals to be licensed to buy guns or ammunition did not get one co-sponsor and never came close to a vote on the House floor. This was just a matter of a license. A license would carry more stringent requirements than a permit but it is still just a license. Americans have to have a license to drive a car. But the politicians are scared to make even the slightest move to limit easy access to guns.

This “lock and load” mania is running strong despite last year’s ruling by the Supreme Court that individual Americans have a right to own guns. That ruling was a reassuring victory for gun owners. But anxiety among people who love their guns continues to rise. The most common explanation for this rising wave of fear is that President Obama — who has said next to nothing on the issue — might want to try to curb gun sales.

The anxiety of those who fear any limits on guns has accelerated since the Mexican government has asked the U.S. for help in keeping guns out of the hands of large Mexican drug dealers. When Attorney General Eric Holder responded to the crisis in Mexico by talking about putting in place a ban on the sale of large guns able to hold multiple cartridges of firepower it was interpreted by some gun rights advocates as a reason to stockpile more guns and ammo.

Just so you know where I am coming from, I’d ban guns — big and little — for private use in the USA. I live in a big city, Washington, D.C., and I grew up in Brooklyn, New York. The bad guys with guns are running wild in big cities. As in most of urban America the people with the guns are young drug dealers fighting over turf and willing to kill anyone from children to little old ladies who happen to get in their way. Black on black homicide, largely among these young men, has been hitting record highs for most of the past decade. These people have no conscience and they scare me.

I think it is okay for people to have guns for use in sport shooting or in the military and police departments. But guns should be kept on military bases or at places where target shooting is practiced.

As for the argument that the Founding Fathers did not want our government to be the only people with guns — what a joke.

Does anyone think they have more guns, biological weapons and even nukes than the federal government and the arsenal of the U.S. military? If it is just a matter of firepower there is no army of civilians — even one with Clint Eastwood, Jack Bauer and the Rock leading the charge — that is going to defeat an American government captured by fascists. Just ask Timothy McVeigh if modern political change in American is possible through the use of bombs much less guns.

This April marks ten years since two disturbed teens went on a killing spree at Columbine High School in Colorado. This month is also marks two years since 32 people were killed by a psycho student in an outright massacre at Virginia Tech.

“About 30,000 people a year in this country die from gun violence, about 80 a day, 32 by homicide — the same number who died at Virginia Tech…” said Paul Helmke, the president of the Jim Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, the organization that was started after President Reagan and Brady were shot by a mentally disturbed man. “In the space of four months, up to nine Americans died as a result of bacteria-laden peanut butter crackers, and the government quickly took action.” But when it comes to guns, Helmke added, “some of the top government officials in our country say we don’t need to do anything different — that we should just ‘enforce the laws on the books.’ The laws on the books aren’t getting the job done. Now is the time to take effective steps to prevent gun violence.”

The roll call of death and suffering from guns continued earlier this month with the tragic mass shooting in Binghamton, N.Y. That followed one man killing ten people in Alabama before taking his own life. And that preceded the murders of eight people in a North Carolina nursing home, as well as one parolee shooting four policemen to death in Oakland, Calif. The grim list goes on and on. Yet there is no change in sight.

In fact, in Nebraska there is a big argument in the legislature about guns. It is not about banning them. The debate is whether to allow security guards to bring guns into churches. To my mind the debate should be about how to keep all guns out of churches. The incredibly wrangling over guns in Nebraska churches is taking place when just a month a man in Illinois shot and killed a preacher during a church service.

In Montana there is a proposal to exempt any gun, gun part or ammunition made in the state from federal laws requiring licenses for gun dealers and background checks before gun sales.

At the moment there is a nationwide run on ammunition and guns. The FBI reports it is being flooded with requests for background checks on people who want to buy guns. The raw numbers are amazing. The FBI got 1.2 million more background check requests for the months November, December, January and February than they did during those four months a year ago.

The San Antonio Express-News reported this week that March sales for the AcuSport company, which sells ammunition and firearms to 4,000 stores nationally, has seen a huge jump in its sales as compared to a year ago. For example it has had a 137 percent jump in the sale of bullets for handguns and an 89 percent jump in the sale of rifle ammunition last month as compared to March of 2008.

In West Virginia, the Charleston Daily Mail reports that in the first three months of this year a local company, Spring Hill Rod and Guns, has sold more ammunition than it sells in an average year. The paper quoted Lawrence Keane, of the National Shooting Sports Foundation, as saying there is a “tremendous shortage of ammunition” across the country.

Where are all these guns going? Are they being properly safe-guarded? Do you doubt that many of them will end up in the wrong hands?

“We have a gun crisis in America,” says Helmke of the Brady group in a recent statement. “As important as the economic crisis is, the right to be safe at home and work and play needs at least as much attention from our policymakers as the right to economic security. It is time for leaders in Washington to drop empty platitudes after each horrific shooting and. . . show backbone and enact reasonable laws to keep dangerous weapons out of the hands of dangerous people.”

Link:
http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/08/williams_juan_guns_binghamton/

Mannlicher
12th April 2009, 17:19
Juan is not a bad guy, for a liberal, but then he does tend to view the world based on his narrow level of experience, and then say that everyone should have to follow his way of thinking.

d90king
12th April 2009, 17:31
I welcome counter point of views from the left and Juan is one of the few who can articulate his thoughts without screaming at you. I think he is very misguided at times but thats just from my perspective. This Country was founded on civil discourse.....

Rich-D
12th April 2009, 18:35
While I find many faults in Juan Williams argument. I find this statement to be childish, and intentionally misleading at best.

"As for the argument that the Founding Fathers did not want our government to be the only people with guns — what a joke."


Rich

d90king
12th April 2009, 19:48
Is there any good argument for disarming law abiding citizens?

kenhwind
12th April 2009, 20:09
I disagree with Juan, but this is a political forum about guns so I guess we should see some of this stuff. If I may add this:

Militia: 1.a. A citizen army, as distinct from a body of professional soldiers. b. The armed citizenry, as distinct from the regular army. 2. The able-bodied male citizens of a state who are not members of regular armed forces, but who are called to military service in cases of emergency. 3. The whole body of physically fit male citizens eligible by law for military service.

By definition the Founding Fathers wanted the citizens armed not the Government. The United States had no standing Army until after WW 2.

Rich-D
12th April 2009, 21:06
kenhwind, Resting on the Militia clause has always concerned me. The Supreme Court in it's decision,( page 5) held that the term "Right of the People" was a collective right. And that the right did not have to be exercised by means of participation in an coporate body. If that were the case, folks too old or too incapicated to qualify for a militia would not have the right to bear arms.


Rich

kenhwind
12th April 2009, 22:31
OH I do agree, but definition 1,a & b defines "we the people" as the Militia. The gun grabbers are always blabbering about being part of the Militia. The Militia is not the National Guard nor is it the Armed Forces, Florida Law refers to "the Militia"and differentiates it from the N G or Armed Services.
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" The people and the Militia are one and the same.
It is only fair that I post the entire definition per my American Hertigage Dictionary, as opposed to just def 1, or def 3

d90king
13th April 2009, 08:59
Not entirely...... In 2a you will see the comma which is meant to separate the "militia" from"the people". The militias were assumed armed (they were a military for the state) it did not assume that in the rest of the clause. I will post a funny but informative explanation from Penn and Teller once I can edit one word.

2a clearly separates militias from "the people".........

Rich-D
13th April 2009, 09:44
“Nowhere else in the Constitution does a ‘right’ attributed to ‘the people’ refer to anything other than an individual right.” (6)

“We start therefore with a strong presumption that the Second Amendment right is exercised individually and belongs to all Americans.” (7)

“[T]he most natural reading of ‘keep Arms’ in the Second Amendment is to ‘have weapons.’” (8)

“The term was applied, then as now, to weapons that were not specifically designed for military use and were not employed in a military capacity.” (8)

“[T]here are a few examples, all of which favor viewing the right to ‘keep Arms’ as an individual right unconnected with militia service…’Keep arms’ was simply a common way of referring to possessing arms, for militiamen and everyone else.” (9) (emphasis in original)


“The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving the militia was the only reason Americans valued the ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more important for self-defense and hunting.” (26)

“Our interpretation is confirmed by analogous arms bearing rights in state constitutions that preceded and immediately followed adoption of the Second Amendment.” (27)

“It is dubious to rely on [the drafting] history to interpret a text that was widely understood to codify a pre-existing right, rather than to fashion a new one.” (30)

“The 19th-century cases that interpreted the Second Amendment universally support an individual right unconnected to militia service.” (37)

“Every late-19th-century legal scholar that we have read interpreted the Second Amendment to secure an individual right unconnected with militia service.” (44)

“It was plainly the understanding in the post-Civil War Congress that the Second Amendment protected an individual right to use arms for self-defense.” (44)
...................................................................................................

Obviously, the Court cited no connection to a Militia, in order to keep and bear arms.

Rich

d90king
13th April 2009, 11:42
Nice addition Rich.... keep them coming!

Tom
13th April 2009, 15:01
Is there any good argument for disarming law abiding citizens?
Sure. Plenty. If you're wanting to set up a dictatorship. :(

d90king
13th April 2009, 15:03
That is how it starts.................. For the "safety of others of course".

dogdollar
13th April 2009, 16:57
Those who find comfort in the Heller decision should keep in mind what the vote was......
DD

d90king
13th April 2009, 17:14
It is rare that SCOTUS reverses its own rulings. Thats not to say it cant happen but it is very rare.

dogdollar
13th April 2009, 17:40
It is rare that SCOTUS reverses its own rulings. Thats not to say it cant happen but it is very rare.
Check the record on capital punishment over the last three decades.

d90king
13th April 2009, 17:58
Tim, are you referring to the times (the types of crimes committed) that capital punishment can be used or capital punishment overall?

There have been many appeals on "grounds" like "child rape or mental retardation" etc..

In most cases it appears the challenges were based upon the type of crime or the capacity of the person committing the crime and did it meet the requirements of capital punishment....

flyfish
13th April 2009, 22:14
Thanks for the information Rich. Very informative. i assume the numbers refer to page numbers in the ruling?

Rich-D
13th April 2009, 23:20
Flyfish, You are correct! d90King has the link posted in the sticky.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-con...8/06/07-290.pdf


Rich

flyfish
14th April 2009, 00:05
Thanks Rich! This is like studying for a college exam! I am learning a lot on this site.

Hunter
14th April 2009, 00:09
He talks "I’d ban guns — big and little — for private use in the USA" and of living in Brooklyn where gun violence is rampant.
I would hazard a guess that those guns were obtained (gasp) illegally and a law prohibiting guns would do nothing for those who are already obtaining guns illegally.
When someone wants something bad enough they will get it. Look at prohibition, it made things much worse in the end with all the mafia violence. Can you imagine what would happen if a bill was passed to "ban guns big and small"?
You see what happened to England and Australia.
Heroin is illegal yet folks use it everyday. I wish close minded folks would understand the past and get in touch with reality.

d90king
14th April 2009, 08:04
He talks "I’d ban guns — big and little — for private use in the USA" and of living in Brooklyn where gun violence is rampant.
I would hazard a guess that those guns were obtained (gasp) illegally and a law prohibiting guns would do nothing for those who are already obtaining guns illegally.


I think Mr Jefferson said it best......

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms, disarm only those who are neither inclined, nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants. They serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson, 1764