Germany to Curb Gun Rights!

[Rich-D]

BERLIN - THE GERMAN government has agreed to curb gun rights, two months after a 17-year-old killed 15 people with a pistol taken from his father's bedroom.

Full Story: http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/World/Story/STIStory_373650.html

Rich

[KCShooter]

Well, it worked for England, didn't it?

Oh, it didn't?

Hmmmm.....

[Pappy]

In part;

"The proposals on the table include banning paintball, a game in which players use air rifles to shoot ammunition filled with paint at opponents.
"Lawmakers say the sport 'simulates killing' and should be outlawed."

And there goes the video games also..

And no playing 'Cops and Robbers' either..

The Gestapo will be watching.... :scared:

[carsten1911]

...for your compassion, folks!

Being a Jerry I wake up sick every day...the morons are leading the orchestra, the media at the very lead, and I dont like the awful noise they make. Things really look serious, I can tell you!

Every day the media (for entertainment purpose, of course!) teach the TV-crowd that any nitwit loser will get the attention of his ex-wife, long-lost buddies and a whole herd of police psychologists if he/ she only grabs a gun or gets some dynamite or threatens to throw a schoolkid from a skyscraper...and these very people dare to point their fingers at us when somebody simply follows the path they suggest.
I aint no hater, but these people get me as close to hate as I can get!

The bad news is that its nearly impossible to counterattack...gun owners are depicted as half-criminal psychos in 95% of the media, and the public, especially city-people, readily swallow that nonsense. Seems to be a German disease that everybody willingly joins in to point at "other" people.

Now what do gun-people do? Finally even parts (!) of the gun-lobby learned that the retreat-battles we fought over the last decades will eventually lead to losing most of the privileges. A small cut hear, a little defeat there, and a little bit of compromise over here....this cant go on indefinitely! Although our constitution does not restrict gunownership we are so broken-in that everybod believes that gun-ownership must be a privilege...and shockingly 90% of the gunowners think along these lines, too!


Not being sarcastic I could only think of 2 things that could shed a different light on the subject:
1. A media-hitting massacre done with clearly illegal firearms...like the zillions of AK´s (47 and 74) the Red Army sold on the black market in East Germany after the fall of the wall. (Not that I`d like or suggest this one....)
2. A legal gun owner saving lives of a group of children. But this is highly unlikely, since no-one is allowed to CARRY a gun. (We can only say: "If I had had a gun with me I could have defended the kids...")

Of course we all do our best, and this year we have 2 or 3 important elections (depending in which of the German states one lives) and there is 1 smaller party (the FDP) who is against criminalizing 2,5 millions proven law-abiding citizens, so keep your fingers crossed for the FDP! All other parties (the both now-ruling CDU and SPD in a somewhat milder, but still totally unacceptable form) are for stricter gun-laws, the "Greens" and the "Left" both want to totally ban guns of any kind...yes, even airguns.
We go public, talk to people, invite them, and so on. But its hard get more attention than the lying media and the loud-drumming parties, they brainwash 24 hours a day.

Strangely nearly no-one gets the point this society has to think about:
Can we trust average people or should any kind of freedom be a privilege handed out by the state? Its the basis of democracy thats at stake, nothing less.

Ah, btw., this year Germany celebrates the 60th birthday of the Bundesrepublik Deutschland and everybody is convinced to live in a near perfect democracy. I just dont get who brought up the idea we are a democracy. We may vote, yes, but democracy is something different..its an attitude towards life and people. And the general attitude is severely lacking, believe me.

Carsten

[Aguila Blanca]

Now what do gun-people do? Finally even parts (!) of the gun-lobby learned that the retreat-battles we fought over the last decades will eventually lead to losing most of the privileges. A small cut hear, a little defeat there, and a little bit of compromise over here....this cant go on indefinitely! Although our constitution does not restrict gunownership we are so broken-in that everybod believes that gun-ownership must be a privilege...and shockingly 90% of the gunowners think along these lines, too!
On this side of the pond, it is referred to as "creeping incrementalism," and it is the approach being followed by the gun-grabbers everywhere.

"We don't want to take away your guns, we just want this little bit of additional regulation to ensure they don't get mis-used."

"Well, some guns are still being mis-used, but we don't want to take them away completely, so why don't we just compromise on this little piece of common-sense regulation to ensure that guns don't fall into the wrong hands."

"Gee, we've let you have your guns and bad things still seem to be happening, so let's agree that you don't really need those scary black assault weapons. You don't mind if we just ban those, do you?"

...

Even a number of supposedly pro-gun members on other "gun" forums tend to buy into this, at least partially. They rant and rave at the absolutists among us, who try to make the point that the NRA is gradually negotiating away the RKBA, one compromise at a time. What y'all need in Germany is a couple of attorneys like Gura to argue the case that the laws (a) don't make sense, and (b) aren't legal. If the U.S. had to depend on the NRA alone, without the Second Amendment Foundation, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, and a couple of other more absolutist organizations, we in the U.S. would be in deep kim-chee.

[carsten1911]

Hi Aguila,

we call it "salami-tactics"....lots of small slices will eventually end the existance of the big salami, too.

Yeah, I´d really love to have a "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" over here.
THAT would kick six for the "political correctos"!
German history and all that....and nobody could argue against their arguments. Maybe some people would even start to think about history instead of sticking their heads in the sand.

Carsten

[daveohno]

Isn't it funny, big cities are home to a large percentage of our most educated people in our societies and somehow, these socialists in the Universities they attend manage to remove any common sense these drones might have had. They believe everything that is contrary to human nature. Give someone something to end want and the problem is, you manage to remove self reliance from them and create helplessness in the very people that you were trying to help. Call 911, you don't have to protect yourself, the Police will do it for you. Now you are timid and afraid while WAITING to be saved. In New York City, a few years back people listened to victims screaming for help while being savaged in the street and didn't help of EVEN call the Police. "I don't want to get involved", they say! But don't you worry! We're from the government and we'll help you! The brutes among us know better, but the sheep never learn.

I'm just so tired of being disgusted with stupid. They lie and lie and lie and the drones keep lapping it up. When will the rest of the drones in society realize that tyrants don't have small mustaches and Nazi armbands anymore? Now they wear custom made suits, spout populism and speak in soothing tones. Give us your money and your freedom. You know, they're just trying to "help".......

[Frank]

...Yeah, I´d really love to have a "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership" over here. THAT would kick six for the "political correctos"!... I'm Jewish and my wife is not. We frequently discuss how absurd it is that so many Jews, notwithstanding mid 20th Century history, are so staunchly anti-gun -- including a couple of very old friends of mine who no longer want anything to do with me now that I'm so active in shooting.

There seems to be a form of hyper-civilized intellectualism that holds that things like being able to handle things in the physical world, including threats and violence, are beneath a truly civilized person. That is, of course, nonsense -- which is why Jeff Cooper so properly characterized it as a form of mental illness.

Once some years ago I came into the office one Monday morning and casually mentioned to a colleague that I had spent the weekend rebuilding a carburetor. He was aghast. Educated folk like lawyers aren't supposed to (1) be able to do such things; or (2) actually do them if they can.

[John]

I had missed this thread, so I apologize for jumping in late.

First of all Carsten, please keep us posted of the developments in your legal issues.

Second, Frank, your words make me appreciate .... myself. :)

I've been teaching my kids to fix things themselves. Alex is particularly capable in this, he can dismantle a toy and build it back again with no help. I believe that manual work (like disassemblying half of the cabin of my Grand Cherokee, in order to change a snapped handbrake cable) is both fulfilling and stimulates thinking. So I tried to pass that to my kids. They may never drive a car with a carburator, but I assure you, they'll know how to rebuild one, if they ever find one in a museum. :D

This is something missing from contemporary youngsters, who are taught that if their faucet leaks, they have to call a plumber. If their lights go out, they can stay in dark for the rest of the day and night until the electrician comes and replaces the fuse. Or that their car works by nuclear fusion, so opening the hood is strictly a dealership mechanic thing. Such vulgar activities and shooting is unthinkable for them. If their life is in danger, they'll call ....
...
...
...

Good Lord and pray. Defending their lives or the lives of their beloved is too much for them.

We live in stupid times, I am sorry to say! :(

[Patriotic]

John, I can appreciate what you and Frank are saying. Just today I was speaking with a US Air Force Coronal who said his son had missed out on a qualifying SAT score for admission to the Air Force Academy because the batteries in his calculator had failed in the middle of the SAT test. Unbelievable that a calculator would even be allowed to be used to take the test. Yet I can understand given the way our children are exposed to the “unreal” ideology of today’s world.

What would happen if there were no plumber to call or no electrician or mechanic available to fix the problem? I think of what it would be like if our youth ever had to hunt or forage to maintain their existence or God forbid, defend themselves. We have become far too complacent and believe in a utopia that does not exist.

As I think carsten1911 pointed out, political correctness does not resolve problems and ignoring a problem is not a solution. Sometimes only individual actions will prevail and we must be ready and able to address these situations.

I think of owning a firearm as much the same as owning a fire extinguisher. You hope you will never have to use it or ever have an occasion to use it but if the time ever comes where you need it, you surely don’t want to be without it.

[Frank]

...Frank, your words make me appreciate .... myself... And you should. It's very sad the way that so many parents have abdicated their responsibilities, and the schools have so often failed miserably, to prepare children assume their proper roles as adults in the real world.

...Or that their car works by nuclear fusion, so opening the hood is strictly a dealership mechanic thing.... Well on that score, I have to admit that when I pop the hood on my Mercedes, I feel lucky that I can figure out how to check the oil. :D :D

[Frank]

...Just today I was speaking with a US Air Force Coronal who said his son had missed out on a qualifying SAT score for admission to the Air Force Academy because the batteries in his calculator had failed in the middle of the SAT test.... And I hate to sound critical of a military officer, but why wasn't the kid raised to deal with that sort of situation (by, perhaps, doing his calculation the old fashion way)? What happened to "adapt, improvise, overcome"?

I admit that my comments here may be unfair. I don't know the situation or the types of problems that kid had to solve. And it may be that test was geared to a degree of difficulty appropriate to the use of a calculator, so doing things the long way might have cost too much time. And there's always "For want of a nail the shoe was lost, and for want of the shoe the horse was lost, and for want of the horse, the kingdom was lost."

But I can't help finding this situation odd.

[Rekladan]

I only saw this thread today.

I was taught math without a calculator. I was never allowed to use a calculator in class, until I was about 17. Then, I had to buy two of them, in case one failed. Now, I'm 31 and to my horror, I realised a few days ago that I no longer remembered how to do long division. It really freaked me out, I didn't relax until I went on-line and found the answer...

I grew up in a city, but I have now been living in the countryside for 4-5 years. I have found that relying on 'handymen' to do small jobs that turn up every now and then would be an excersise in futility. I occasionally surprise my old 'city' friends by mentioning some really simple things, like how my wife and I had to replace nearly all our plumbing, or how we installed a secondary electical network in the shop, to run essential devices from our 9kW 3-phase generator when the power goes out (regularly). Relating hilarious jokes about something unexpected that happened as I was cleaning the diesel boiler is getting VERY difficult...

Events in Germany are too close for comfort. When this tragedy occurred, I happened to have some guests from Berlin here. One of them is a retired police officer, and he came to me a few days later to tell me that when he gets back to Germany he may have to give up the guns he owns because of this, despite being a retired LEO.

All we can do now is see if our politicians here in Greece see this as an opportunity to appear more 'progressive' by copying the latest law trends, set by their EU colleagues in Germany.

Actually no, that's not all we should do, is it?

[carsten1911]

Daveohno,

to sum up the sub-topic you brought in (and rightfully) I added an Arab saying to my signature...this one had itched me for quite a while anyway ;-)
(Note to everybody: If the wording could be improved, please feel free to PM me, sometimes my English is be a bit crude...)

To Rekladans question/ post:
Now you know first hand how submissive my fellow people have become. Negative projection IS the major problem..."THEY will take my guns". The rabbit caught in the headlights. Gosh, who are THEY? Are WE the state or some obscure authorities? You cant win a fight you never start!

And the best way is of course to carry the word around: Offensively talk to non-gunners ( and non-knifers as well!). An old school-buddy (sadly turned to a big-city guy) who was shocked when he saw me pull out a knife on a walk will get a knife for a birthday present. He will learn that it does not slit throats on its own.
So many are indoctrinated by dumb TV-shows and firmly believe that guns and knifes are only there for killing innocent people. TELL AND SHOW them that TV is not reality...sad enough we have to do that, but then again, hey, we have our mistakes, too.

Voting helps too, BUT: Politicians only mirror their society...nowadays they do not develop real political ideas and ideals. Gone are the days of the founding fathers and similar spirited men and women.
If the whole society is scared of guns and hates them they WILL disappear. Society as a such must re-learn...and we, and only we, are the teachers.
I turned around my wife, I got colleagues to thinking and I will carry on...we are 2,5 millions out of 80 millions here in "ole Jerry-many". A voice to be heard for sure, but only if we speak out.

Carsten

[Frank]

...BUT: Politicians only mirror their society.....
Thank you, Carsten. It's very important that we remember this.

I frequently hear (or see in print) someone saying something like, "The politicians don't trust me with guns" or "The government won't trust us with gun."

Actually, I doubt that the politicians really care. They live lives so removed from the rest of us, our guns aren't really much of a factor for them personally. What they care about is getting and keeping their jobs.

So what it comes down to is that enough of our neighbors, enough of the people in our community, enough of the people in our town, enough of the people in our county, enough of the people in our state, and enough of the people in our country don't like guns, and don't trust the rest of us with them, that politicians who take anti-gun stands can get elected and re-elected (and bureaucrats who take anti-gun stands can keep their jobs).

So we need to remember that part of the battle to keep our guns needs to be waged with our fiends and neighbors in out communities.

We have met the enemy -- and he is us.

[carsten1911]

Dear fellow members,

last weekend the biggest German hunters´association publicly announced that they would agree to any restrictions a new gun-law would bring.
Talk about hanging together vs. hanging seperately. :mad:

So far, so bad.

Carsten

[Tom]

last weekend the biggest German hunters´association publicly announced that they would agree to any restrictions a new gun-law would bring.
Talk about hanging together vs. hanging seperately.
Sorry to hear that, Carsten. It's always sad when you see groups cave in to pressure.

[carsten1911]

Hi Folks,

here in short the state of things:
There is a new gun-law the Bundestag (similar to the US House of Representatives) had proposed. It still needs to be approved (or dissapproved, but this is very unlikely in this case) by the Bundesrat (similar to the US Senate).

The main changes will be:

1. A Germany-wide central gun-register (up to now registration was de-central, organized by counties and/ or federal state)

2. A bad one: Gun-owners homes may be searched to find out, if the storing of guns and ammo is according to the law. (Gun in a certified safe, ammo in a different steel container, a clear classification for the latter has not been formulated up to now, to my knowledge). Its a objective-bound search, so only gun storage can be looked at.
This puts a very thoroughly examined part of the population, proven law-abiding citizens, under general suspect and is a declaration of bancrupcy for a democratic state, in my troglodyte`s, gun-lover`s restricted view.
(Up to now searches were only allowed if there was a justified and formulated suspicion one´s guns were not stored according to the law)

3. People under 18 are not allowed to shoot big-bore guns...not even under the supervision of certified trainers.

4. Another very bad one...the sporting-shooters-privilege (assumption that a sporting shooter needs a gun to train and compete) is reduced:
a) The license-giving authority can examine if you still have a proven need for the guns...if they dont THINK you do so, they can take away your guns without compensation. They guns will be destroyed. This one hurts me VERY much, for jobs and kids keep me pretty much away from gun ranges nowadays. (Really love for being punished for working hard and having kids and a house...).
No clear regulations have been made about the criteria you have to meet to still have that proven need. Probably just a matter of bribe, I guess :(

b)You need to prove at least 18 shooting competitions (at least at county level) per year if you want to have more guns that the "normal" contingent for a sporting shooter ... so your disciplines are dictated more or less by authorities , not your talents or interest.


Topics that ultra-nitwits had demanded that were fortunately (well, not by fortune, but by hard work of shooters, associations and the "gun lobby") dropped:
a) Outlawing of IPSC and CASS (because of combat-shooting elements)
b) Outlawing private persons to store guns or ammo
c) Outlawing big-bore handguns in general


All in all you still can shoot in Germany, but I dont like any bit of it.

I´ll keep you informed.
Wish us luck!

Carsten

[kenhwind]

Didn't a fellow with a funny mustache and a swastika on his shirt do this to Germany once before?
The elected jerks here is the US have the same plans, but "we the people bought up all of the ammo and reloading components.

[carsten1911]

Didn't a fellow with a funny mustache and a swastika on his shirt do this to Germany once before?
The elected jerks here is the US have the same plans, but "we the people bought up all of the ammo and reloading components.
Hi Ken,

well, an understanding on the basics for this topic needs a certain knowlegde of history worldwide.
If the subject comes up I frequently throw in countries like US of A, France, Switzerland...and most of the time the dead brains cannot see any connection between the topics democracy an the mentioned countries.
(Nervertheless they mumble about "history" all the time, meaning that funny mustache-guy and his bunch. I always tell ´em : Hey , the US-people would just have shot up the dirty lot of them right at their start and have a celebration and a barbecue for saving democracy afterwards!=> Puzzled looks and silence...just too much self-reliance and acted out responsibility for an average Jerry, I guess.)

Carsten