CA - List of Approved Firearms!

[Rich-D]

Here is the link to the CA Approved Firearms list!

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Rich

[d90king]

Great link! Looks like it gives you some good info.

[Rich-D]

From what I have gathered, all new additions to the list must have a mag disconnect safety. The 1911's already on the list may stay on the list, unless the company does not pay the renewal fee.

I have actually worked on several cases, where the mag disconnect lead to an accidential death.


Rich

[Frank]

From what I have gathered, all new additions to the list must have a mag disconnect safety. The 1911's already on the list may stay on the list, unless the company does not pay the renewal fee.... Both a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect -- two very useless features. Among other things, if someone doesn't know how to do a chamber check, how's he going to know what the little thingie on the slide (loaded chamber indicator) means?

And, you're correct. Anything on the list can stay as long as the maker continues to pay the fee.

[Old Fashioned]

Just my opinion. I looked at the list of firearms that have been removed from the approved list. A whole bunch! Then I looked at the list of firearms recently added to the approved list. One! C Once a munufacturer gets a firearm certified, they must continue to pay a fee to keep it certified. It appears to me that the anti-gun politicians in California have found a way to blackmail these companies. Am I wrong?

[Frank]

...It appears to me that the anti-gun politicians in California have found a way to blackmail these companies. Am I wrong? It doesn't really cost a lot to keep a gun on the list. Last I checked, the renewal fee was $250.00 a year. OTOH, if I, as the manufacturer, have discontinued a particular model, or if I've only sold a hand full in the last year or two, how long am I going to be willing to keep paying that?

What this will do in the long run is chase (or keep out) the marginal or small boutique manufacturers and also limit a manufacturer's offerings to only a few of his most popular models.

[Rich-D]

It may not cost much for a large corporation, however it is Gun Control advocates at work!

Rich

[Steve C]

The renewal fee may only be $250, but I'm sure the initial approval is more costly. Also, ANY change, even cosmetic in nature means the pistol needs to go through the re-certification process all over again. I recall reading about one manufacturer ( I forget which now) that just lengthened the rail on a pistol by 1/4" and CA insisted they go through the certification process all over again.

That pistol is no longer sold in CA.

[Rich-D]

A certification is needed for each separate finish of the same model gun! Ridiculess!

Rich

[Frank]

Look guys, I'm not trying to defend the California law. I'm just trying to be accurate.

...I'm sure the initial approval is more costly.... It certainly is, but I was responding to Old Fashioned's comment about guns that were on the list and dropped off.

A certification is needed for each separate finish of the same model gun! Ridiculess!Yes it is ridiculous, but each finish doesn't have to be tested. The manufacturer requests a listing, represents that the model is mechanically identical to one already tested and certified and submits one exemplar for archival purposes.

Again, I'm not trying to defend the law. It has artificially inflated the price of "off-list" guns in the local secondary market, and it has prevented me from getting some guns I would have liked to have. But let's be accurate and not gratuitously inflammatory.

[pdangeruss]

Both a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect -- two very useless features. Among other things, if someone doesn't know how to do a chamber check, how's he going to know what the little thingie on the slide (loaded chamber indicator) means?

And, you're correct. Anything on the list can stay as long as the maker continues to pay the fee.
This link: http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/
From the pdf document located in Chapter 5 on page #14, Line "F" explains how the loaded chamber indicator has to function.

Page 14 of 26
(d)(1) A functioning chamber load indicator must meet all of the following conditions:
(A) Explanatory text and/or graphics either incorporated within the chamber load indicator or
adjacent to the chamber load indicator is/are permanently displayed by engraving, stamping, etching,
molding, casting, or other means of permanent marking.
(B) Each letter of explanatory text must have a minimum height of 1/16 inch.
(C) The explanatory text and/or graphics shall be of a distinct visual contrast to that of the firearm.
(D) The “loaded” indication, that portion of the chamber load indicator that visually indicates there
is a round in the chamber, shall be of a distinct color contrast to the firearm.
(E) Only when there is a round in the chamber, the “loaded” indication is visible on the firearm from
a distance of at least twenty-four inches. When there is no round in the chamber, the “loaded”
indication must not be visible.
(F) The text and/or graphics and the “loaded” indication together inform a reasonably foreseeable adult user of the pistol, that a round is in the chamber, without requiring the user to refer to a user’s manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself.

[Rich-D]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich-D
A certification is needed for each separate finish of the same model gun! Ridiculess!

Yes it is ridiculous, but each finish doesn't have to be tested. The manufacturer requests a listing, represents that the model is mechanically identical to one already tested and certified and submits one exemplar for archival purposes.

Again, I'm not trying to defend the law. It has artificially inflated the price of "off-list" guns in the local secondary market, and it has prevented me from getting some guns I would have liked to have. But let's be accurate and not gratuitously inflammatory.

Gee, Frank we so seldom disagree. However, I do not believe that I was being " gratuitously inflammatory" nor "inaccurate". The list is titled "Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale" In order to be on the list a model must be certified.

If a gun has a different finish then a model that is certified, it must also be certified. I did not discuss the procedure for initial certification, nor subsequent model finishes certifications. So I can not comprehend where I may have been inaccurate or gratuitously inflammatory. I merely stated a fact.

The only possible inflammatory remark I made was "Ridiculous" however, you agreed with that remark.

Rich

[Frank]

...I did not discuss the procedure for initial certification, nor subsequent model finishes certifications... That's right, you didn't. But in my view failure to mention the differences between initial certification (which involves submission of three examples to an independent laboratory and subjecting the examples to a testing protocol) and certification of a purely cosmetic variation, is misleading. The clear implication was that the certification process for a mere variation in finish is the same as for a different model.

[Rich-D]

Frank, I don't follow the logic, nor do I agree with the tags describing my post. However, I am willing to agree to disagree, and let it go!

Rich ;)

[Frank]

Fine with me, Rich.

[jman527]

Seriously? Both a loaded chamber indicator and a magazine disconnect? Won't both of those "features" help people develop bad habits and technique. I was taught that no matter how many times you check you still treat the gun as if it were loaded. If there is no magazine OR indicator I would still assume that it is loaded and able to fire. Machines fail all the time. When safety can be measured in thousandths of an inch mechanics should not be trusted over proper habits and training. These requirements give the illusion that the guns are the problem, that the responsibility falls on the machine not on the operator. If a gun cannot commit an accident, then it cannot commit a crime and is not the problem. If a gun can commit an accident, then it can commit a crime and is the problem. It is like blaming the car or the road if you run into another car. Responsibility is hard and these people don't want it, they want something else to blame. How do we who are responsible help those who are not accept what they are not willing to accept?

[Frank]

:wc:

...Won't both of those "features" help people develop bad habits and technique.... I guess the short answer is that they don't care.

When I, and the folks I teach with, teach our Basic Handgun class, we teach that things like loaded chamber indicators and magazine disconnects are basically useless geegaws and must never be relied upon. We expect them to always perform a proper chamber check and to clear a gun in the proper way. And we point out that these techniques work with every gun, whether or not it has a loaded chamber indicator or a magazine disconnect.

We also show how the magazine disconnect in the current production S&W auto-loaders can be bypassed. If you hold the trigger, taking up the slack, and then remove the magazine, the gun will fire -- notwithstanding the magazine disconnect.

...When safety can be measured in thousandths of an inch mechanics should not be trusted over proper habits and training. These requirements give the illusion that the guns are the problem, that the responsibility falls on the machine not on the operator... You won't get any argument from me. You're absolutely right.

It strikes me that there seem to be two approaches to dealing with the risks inherent in the world. The first, and oldest, is to learn how to manage yourself and things properly to minimize risks and for maximum utility. The second, and what appears to currently be in fashion, is to somehow fix things to make them less dangerous and thus delude yourself into believing you've accomplished something. The former has fallen out of favor since it takes time and effort. The latter appears easy, but tends to be of more limited effectiveness.

The truth is that life is hazardous activity and the world is a dangerous place in which to play. In the long run, one is better served by learning to recognize and deal with risk than by trying to sweep them away.

[Rich-D]

The true objective is to set in place as many obstacles to gun ownership that may be conjured up.

Rich

[dogdollar]

I for one cannot BELIEVE Les Baer would give them one each of every gun in his lineup and then one each AGAIN of those same guns with the 1.5" package. Insanity.
DD

[pdangeruss]

I for one cannot BELIEVE Les Baer would give them one each of every gun in his lineup and then one each AGAIN of those same guns with the 1.5" package. Insanity.
DD
Actually, Dogdollar, good 'ol Les had to submit THREE of each pistol for the initial testing, then THREE of each in the 1-1/2" group also. then after that just has to pay for the annual renewal. That is why he only has 19 models on the list for sale in CA (including the 1-1/2's) instead of all the models he offers. Not any new models either, because of the mag disconnect and the loaded-chamber indicitor, which I believe went into effect in 2007, along with the "great" instructional safety lettering requirements.

[d90king]

Does a C&R license allow you to circumvent the states requirements? Can you "collect" guns not on the list if you have a Fed license?

[pdangeruss]

Does a C&R license allow you to circumvent the states requirements? Can you "collect" guns not on the list if you have a Fed license?
If you're referring to Handguns, No.

Some of what it does, is if you have both a state COE (certificate of eligibility) along with the '03 FFL (C&R license) allow you to purchase more than one handgun in 30 days and eliminate the 10 day wait. They allow you to purchase C&R Handguns that aren't on the list. They allow you to reveive C&R long guns without aid of state mandated FFL. You may also travel across state lines, purchase and receive C&R long guns (that are otherwise legal). You must still utilize an FFL for transfers of all hand guns, which in itself precludes a non-C&R handgun from being purchased/imported to the state, under separate statutes.

The only way I know of for a CA resident to legally acquire a hand gun from out of the state, in other than an in CA face to face transfer, that is not on the list (otherwise legal of coarse, i.e. 10-rnd magazine, non-threaded barrel, etc.) is to receive an inheritance or a bonafide gift from a family member (family limited to parent, child, grandparent). Several other state and fed laws must be followed to do this, though.

[Frank]

One other little wrinkle -- IIRC a handgun that would be classified as a C&R need not be on the list. So a California resident may legally receive a C&R handgun from out of state, through a California FFL of course, even if the handgun is not on the list.

[Rich-D]

California's list of Approved Handguns is facing a U.S. District Court Challenge! :appld:


http://www.gun-politics.org/showthread.php?t=216


Rich

[Eddie]

I have actually worked on several cases, where the mag disconnect lead to an accidential death.

I'm interested in hearing an example, if you don't mind.

[d90king]

Thanks for the clarification guys. :)

[d90king]

California's list of Approved Handguns is facing a U.S. District Court Challenge! :appld:


http://www.gun-politics.org/showthread.php?t=216


Rich
That sounds great! Now they should file a case about the "may" issue...

[Rich-D]

I'm interested in hearing an example, if you don't mind.
I do not like placing on public view, incidents that would be heart breaking for family members to view. So, I will only post one case and a short synopsis. Also it is difficult to post cases, which contain dozens of pages of investigative reports, filed by a number of investigator's. And the reasons for their conclusions, without opening up endless debate.

Incident
A young man is showing another young man a stolen semi-auto inside of a home in Camden NJ. The one who was attempting to sell the gun pulls the mag ( which was empty) and hands the mag and gun it to the potential buyer. Neither man is aware of the fact that there is a round in the chamber.

After fondling the gun for a few minutes, he points the gun to the floor and attempted to pull the trigger on the gun which he believed to be empty. The man than places the empty mag in the gun, as his teenage girlfriend is descending the steps from the second floor.

In an attempt to impressess his girlfriend, he places the gun in his waist band and quick draws. The gun fires, she is struck in the forehead and killed.

Though the seller of the gun initially lied to cover himself, he broke down in interrogation and again in the the Polygraph room. The boyfriend passed a subsequent Polygraph test. I don't recall the exact charges that the men were convicted of, but it was not intentional homicide.

Rich

[Eddie]

Thanks, Rich. I wasn't looking for a "story." Just confirmation that the fault lay with the shooter, not the instrument, but I do see your point.

[Patriotic]

I noticed the loaded chamber indicator has to be labeled in 1/16 inch letters. Does it have to be in English and Spanish also?