Klamath County, Oregon Parks

[Chilo45]

Since we have a new puppy (well he's now 10 months old - pure bred male Pug) I've been wanting to take him for some walks in the county parks along the Klamath lakes; so I ventured to the Klamath County Parks web site to see what if anything was listed about concealed carry and this is what I found:

Firearms
a. No person shall possess any loaded firearm or discharge any firearm, pellet gun, bow and arrow, sling shot, or missile launching devices within a County Park, except those parks, or park areas especially designated for such purpose.
b. Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a person acting in defense of his or her person or protection of his or her property.

Now I'm not a rocket scientists but it sure sounds to me that section b. does not correlate with section a. :confused: No mention of CCL anywhere that I could locate; and the CCL state statues refer to the local county rules / regulations.

I've written to the superintendent of Parks to get a clarification and it has now been 9 work days and no reply. Just don't want to jeopardize my CCL out walking the dog.

[wbb]

Where I live the state parks have "no firearms allowed"signs but you can carry with a CHL, and I keep a copy of the CHL laws in my truck in case a park ranger asks me if I have one. A lot of the laws concerning CC are confusing, I would find out rather than risk losing your license.

[d90king]

Hmmm.... :confused:

It certainly on the surface sounds contradictory. If you can't have it how could you use it?

[Rich-D]

If you can't have it how could you use it? The attacking felon would have to accept Self Defense Credit Cards, for that provision to work! :confused:


Rich

[kenhwind]

Hmmm. Concealed Carry! Well you certainly don't want to violate any laws. This is where State pre-emption is a good thing.
I just checked the FL law, and it does not mention parks, but does say, " any place prohibited by Federal Law" So I assume I can carry in parks with my CCW. now I'm referring to State and County, and not private or Fed parks.

[Tom]

What does the section, of which subsections a. and b. belong, say? Can you quote the entire section?

[Chilo45]

What does the section, of which subsections a. and b. belong, say? Can you quote the entire section?

Tom,

That's it in its entirety, as shown in my original post. So no walking the dog at the parks until I get a written clarification to keep with me, just in case.

[Rich-D]

Tom, Here is the entire page, wherein the Rule is listed. http://www.co.klamath.or.us/comdevelopment/county_park_rules.htm

Chilo45, In addition to the Park System, I would also request an opinion from the County DA/Prosecutor.

Or you could buy a backpack for the dog and have the dog CCW the gun! The dog not being a "Person" under the rule! ;)

Rich

[d90king]

Or you could buy a backpack for the dog and have the dog CCW the gun! The dog not being a "Person" under the rule!

Oh now that would make a great court case! :lm:

Very, very interesting if given some thought. My gut says that the "owner" of the dog would be the "owner" of the gun. Now who is to say that a "stray" dog didn't just happened to "tag along" ....

Note to self don't carry in pet photos on a walk in a park. :lm:


I would love to hear Frank present an opening argument " your honor my client a Black Lab pleads not guilty"...

[Rich-D]

Originally Posted by Rich-D
"Or you could buy a backpack for the dog and have the dog CCW the gun! The dog not being a "Person" under the rule!"

I know that the members are aware. However, for the visitors edification, my post was made in jest! I am not a proponent of K-9's being armed. Unless of course, they pass a safety course and obtain a CCW permit! :p


Rich

[Tom]

That's it in its entirety, as shown in my original post.
Tom, Here is the entire page, wherein the Rule is listed. http://www.co.klamath.or.us/comdeve..._park_rules.htm
Thank you for the clarification.

Yeah, it does seem to my unprofessional legal eye to be a contradiction between item (a) and (b). I'd love to get their "official" answer to that.

[Tom]

I'd love to get their "official" answer to that.
I'd love it so much that I just fired off a letter to one Stephanie Brown, the only person listed on their Home Page with an email address.

Here's the content on the email:

Dear Ms. Brown:

I'm writing this email to you in the hopes of the clarification to one of your park rules regarding firearms.

On your website, it states the following:

Firearms

1.

No person shall possess any loaded firearm or discharge any firearm, pellet gun, bow and arrow, sling shot, or missile launching devices within a County Park, except those parks, or park areas especially designated for such purpose.
2.

Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a person acting in defense of his or her person or protection of his or her property.


As I read this, according to subsection (a), no firearms or other sort of missile launching weapons are allowed within the park unless the park or area within a park is specifically designated. So if a park contains a shooting range, then firearms are permitted. I'm all right with the rule so far.

My problem is with subsection (b). In it, it states that the previous subsection - subsection (a) - doesn't apply if a person is acting in self-defense or in the defense of one's property.

So am I lead to understand that I am prohibited from bringing a firearm into a prohibited park UNLESS I am subsequently attacked or there's a threat to my property? Obviously one cannot predict when one will be attacked (though that would be nice). So since we are unable to know of these attacks in advance, what do we do? Ask the would-be assailant to wait while I go back to my house to get my gun or slingshot? Do I tell the thief-to-be to not steal my camping supplies until I can come back with my bow and arrow?

I cannot see how one can comply with both subsections (a) and (b). Either we should be allowed to bring LEGAL weapons with us to ANY of the parks in case there is a need to defend one's self, or we shouldn't be allowed to being weapons ANYWHERE within a park in which that is prohibited, regardless of the potential circumstances.

Obviously in an ideal world we wouldn't need to defend ourselves anywhere we go, but as we know the world isn't built that way. Bad people are everywhere, and while I'm sure your Department does what it can to make sure its visitors have a safe experience while on your properties, you cannot be everywhere all the time and bad people come to the parks as well. So it would be comforting to know that one CAN bring a firearm or any other type of weapon for the sole purpose of defending one's self in case of an emergency and not be in violation of the park rules.

I would appreciate any clarification you can offer on this issue.

Thanking you in advance,

If/when I get a response back, I will post it.

[Chilo45]

Tom,

I am still waiting for my answer; Ms. Brown forwarded my request for clarification to Tom Crist, Parks Supervisor. I also contacted my local sheriff (Tim Evinger - a great guy by the way) and the District Attorney's office asking for clarification.

[d90king]

Very nice Tom, very nice indeed! Great Job! Thanks for taking the time to write the letter.

I wonder what the form letter will look like when you receive your response. Did you write the letter giving your out of state address?

[Chilo45]

I just received a call from the sheriff's office and was told that as far as they were concern open carry in a county park is within the laws of Oregon and with a concealed carry permit I was double protected. So with that, tonight I'm taking my dog for a walk in the park (and I'll be carrying).

[d90king]

Very interesting! I need to go read the "gun free zone" schools etc... language again. If memory serves me, its written in a way that is similar to this language.

I don't want to sway this thread off topic so I will post a thread on it. I just found the language and it is surprisingly similar.

[Rich-D]

I just received a call from the sheriff's office and was told that as far as they were concern open carry in a county park is within the laws of Oregon and with a concealed carry permit I was double protected. So with that, tonight I'm taking my dog for a walk in the park (and I'll be carrying).
I would consider waiting for a legal opinion "in writing" from the County DA, or the Parks Dept!

Rich

[Chilo45]

Further clarification - the call I got was from the deputy sheriff who is "in-charge" of coverage of my area of Klamath county - he patrols the Chiloquin area and we have met / talked / are known to each other. After speaking with the sheriff, he stated what I had posted earlier. While I agree with what Rich stated, he also informed me that he spoke to the D.A.'s office and they are perplexed at the county rule as he was when he read it in its entirety and he told me that until the D.A.'s office had a chance to speak with the Parks department management that I would not hear from either of them.

So I am confident that I'll be OK for now - besides no one knows that I'm concealed carrying, right? :D

[Rich-D]

Chilo45, Reading your post. I assumed, you were going to open carry. Concealed carry would be the better choice. if it were necessary to utilize your gun, you can point to:

Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a person acting in defense of his or her person or protection of his or her property.

Also, The backing of the Sheriff's Office is a very big plus in the issue!

Enjoy your walks!
Rich

[Tom]

I have not heard back from Ms. Brown or anyone else connected with the park. And no, when I signed my email, I just used my name. I didn't include my state of residence.

[Chilo45]

Greetings -

Took Moose this morning out to the wetlands county park along the Agency Lake area of the Klamath Lakes. The entire loop is 5.6 miles but we only went a mile in and then back to the truck as he can over-heat easily. I concealed carried my 1911 and felt very comfortable and secure - and we both had a great time.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s259/cjw3cma/MOOSEat8months-1.jpg
Thanks for the responses to my original post and I do hope that either Tom or I do receive a reply from the county parks office to our letters. ;)

[Tom]

Moose is adorable!

[Rich-D]

Moose is Super Cool! :D


Rich

[d90king]

Somehow, "Moose" seems like the perfect name for that dog.... :lm: Glad you guys had a nice walk in the park.

[Frank]

Moose looks like a fine fellow -- great eyes.

It'll be interesting to see if anyone hears from someone in authority. I would be too surprised that if they respond the response will be as confusing as the rule.

[Aguila Blanca]

Section a. prohibits possessing a loaded firearm. As I read it, you would be within the letter of the law if you carried a 1911 with a loaded magazine not in the pistol. Since Section 'b' provides an exception for self-defense, once you are in a situation where you feel endangered and need to defend yourself, possession (and discharge) of a loaded firearm becomes allowed. Load 'em up ...

[Tom]

And that might be the key - the loaded firearm. I'm still waiting to hear back from someone - anyone - at the park.

[Rich-D]

I have not heard back from Ms. Brown or anyone else connected with the park. And no, when I signed my email, I just used my name. I didn't include my state of residence.
The question based on common sense, may make it too difficult for them to send an intelligent response!

Rich

[Chilo45]

I just received a telephone call from Mr. Crist of the Klamath County Parks apologizing for the delay, but he stated that his hands are tied by the legal department(s) who are currently looking at revising the aforementioned park rule. I did explain that I was contacted by the local sheriff's office and told him what they had said to me; he said he did not have a problem with it.

He also asked me how to contact Tom and I said by email only.

[Rich-D]

Chilo45, I am amazed at the prompt response. Now let's hope the revision does not bar firearms completely.

Best of Luck!
Rich

[Chilo45]

Final clarification came in an email that stated my concealed carry firearm cannot be loaded while in a county park. So it's the same a carrying a rock !!!!!

[Tom]

I got a reply back today as well:



This note is to follow-up on your request for clarification in regards to the Park Rule about firearms. Your question was forwarded to the Sheriff for his input and comment. After speaking with the Sheriff and reviewing our County Ordinance , the below paragraphs do allow you to carry a weapon but it must remain unloaded. In the event you possess a concealed weapons permit, this permit does not give the individual the authority to override a County Ordinance. I appreciate the diligence on your part to inquire into this matter and thank you for your understanding.

Firearms

a. No person shall possess any loaded firearm or discharge any firearm, pellet gun, bow and arrow, sling shot, or missile launching devices within a County Park, except those parks, or park areas especially designated for such purpose.

b. Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a person acting in defense of his or her person or protection of his or her property.


Tom Crist
Parks Supervisor


So basically I got the same impression. Yes, if you have a permit to carry, you can carry your firearm - as long as it is unloaded - for self defensive purposes. So I guess you're going to have to learn how to ask a would-be attacker "Hey, could you wait a minute while I load?"

[Woodman]

I have always been disturbed by how laws are written to seemingly tie the hands of the legal, law abiding citizen, yet perfectly enable the criminal, who doesn't follow the rule of the law anyway, to have free reign over their victim.

For example, it's perfectly legal for a CCW holder to have a loaded and ready means of self defense everywhere EXCEPT in a state park in your state. Yet, knowing this, the criminals would be able to go there and prey on the unarmed people because they know that they're not likely able to defend themselves readily.

Wouldn't a law that said something simple and to the point, such as "It is illegal to carry a firearm, slingshot, or missile launching device to be used for illegal activities while in the park/bar/post office/etc"

Just takes the whole problem of being able to defend yourself out of the equation. Sure, target shooting in the woods may be illegal, so you can't do that. But, defending yourself from an aggressive attacker would be perfectly legal and a reasonable response.

[Rich-D]

So basically I got the same impression. Yes, if you have a permit to carry, you can carry your firearm - as long as it is unloaded - for self defensive purposes. So I guess you're going to have to learn how to ask a would-be attacker "Hey, could you wait a minute while I load

That Bites!http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc267/Rich-D345/10_1_1331.gif

As they believe that laws solve the problems in society. What is need is a regulation, which mandates that all felons have to abide by a 10 second notification rule, before a crime is committed! It would give the honest citizen time to load!

If I were a citizen of the county, I would go to a Park meeting, bringing a few friends. At the meeting I would make a motion for the 10 second notification regulation. It would show how ridiculess, the currant regulation really is!

Rich

[d90king]

Im glad you at least got a reply and clarification... Maybe you can throw it at your attacker.

Can you carry ammo in a state park? If so, situational awareness should give you ample time to load your weapon.


Especially with that beast of a canine you have to walk with. :lm:

[Chilo45]

I plan on attending the next county governmental meeting and add this County Parks ruling to the agenda for discussion. While I should be able to insert a magazine in my 1911 and rack the slide quickly, the entire purposes of a concealed weapons permit is to be ready to defend myself and/or my loved ones / property at a moments notice.

While their ruling may be for the good of all society, it does favor the criminal by them knowing that they can be armed with a loaded weapon while I cannot. That to me is the main problem with this type of ruling.

Maybe I'll not take Moose on walks there after all. He and I can find other places near one of the rivers to take our strolls while I am properly armed (cocked and locked).

[kenhwind]

Seems like Oregon got all of the leftover politicos from the Calif nut house IMO.
That has to be one of the most "donkey headed" rules I've seen. An unloaded concealed carry gun makes about as much sense as, or even less sense than no gun at all.