FFL/CR Forum?

[Wilburt]

Maybe it would be nice to have a designated area for questions on how to obtain the differant FFL's and CR Licence. I'm sure it comes up alot.

[d90king]

I don't know about a separate sub forum but maybe I can assemble all the pertinent info needed and post a sticky with the info. I will touch base with some of the others and get their input. I will give you an update shortly.

[Wilburt]

Thanks. I just know there is a market for the "average joe" to become an FFL holder especialy with the new political climate and there's alot of mis-information out their of how to obtain an FFL. Just try to do a goolge search.

[kenhwind]

The best info on this subject is probably the BATFE website. After all you have to go to them no matter what else you do to obtain a FFL. Its a lot more involved than someone might think.
First off you need a business address, your home is not a business, this alone rule out the "average Joe"
If we believed the web sources we can all get a Govt Grant and live happily ever after. Go to the govt website amd they tell you all this info is baloney.

[Rich-D]

A business location is not necessary for a C&R Licensee. Also, I know several Retail FFL's who utilize a home address. I am not up on FFL Licensing regs, however it appears that if State and local governments permit, one may have a business within the confines of a residence premises.

ATF regs:
Has premises for conducting business or collecting; and

The applicant certifies that:

the business to be conducted under the license is not prohibited by State or local law in the place where the licensed premises is located;

within 30 days after the application is approved the business will comply with the requirements of State and local law applicable to the conduct of the business;

the business will not be conducted under the license until the requirements of State and local law applicable to the business have been met;

the applicant has sent or delivered a form to the chief law enforcement officer where the premises is located notifying the officer that the applicant intends to apply for a license; and

secure gun storage or safety devices will be available at any place in which firearms are sold under the license to persons who are not licensees (“secure gun storage or safety device” is defined in 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(34)).
[18 U.S.C. 923(d)(1), 27 CFR 478.47(b)]


Rich

[kenhwind]

OK, but the overall rules and regs would prevent the "average Joe" from obtaining a FFL because he probably could not afford the ATF fees in the first place.
A residence only zoning would prohibit a business, etc. In FL you cannot operate a retail business out of your residence, of course this varies from location to location,and state to state, etc.
Having a business in your residence places your home under strict scrutiny of the IRS. The FFL, ATF
A C & R license is not a business FFL, I know that a record book must be kept, kept up to date, and available to ATF on demand. And I believe there is a limit on buy and sell.

[Rich-D]

"Having a business in your residence places your home under strict scrutiny of the IRS. The FFL, ATF"

It sure does! Your premises may be searched without a warrant during regular business hours!

Rich

[Wilburt]

because he probably could not afford the ATF fees

Only $200 for first 3 years, $90 renewal. While not cheap, not too bad either.

In FL you cannot operate a retail business out of your residence, of course this varies from location to location,and state to state, etc.

True. This is why I belive there should be a place like this that could educate people. The ATF site is good but still leaves alot of questions. I'm pro Gun and think if people knew how to tackle becoming an FFl holder they just might.

[d90king]

I have not read all of the responses so I don't know if this has been covered.

I believe that FFL's now require a "storefront" and new permits are not being given to homeowners any longer. I think that those who had them were grandfathered in.

C&R's I believe still can be obtained from ones home.

Keep in mind that obtaining these licenses reduces your rights in some capacities and that should be weighed in your thought process.

I will post the ATF, etc links shortly.....

[kenhwind]

Well we have this thread, good enough for now IMO

[d90king]

Well we have this thread, good enough for now IMO
Not a bad point....

[Aguila Blanca]

"Having a business in your residence places your home under strict scrutiny of the IRS. The FFL, ATF"

It sure does! Your premises may be searched without a warrant during regular business hours.
Having an FFL does not place your "home" under any sort of BATFE scrutiny. An 01 (retail) FFL must have place of business, and must have posted business hours. The place of business may be your basement, your garage, or a designated room in your house. The regular business hours can be limited to one hour a week, but you MUST be open for business at that time, and it must be posted.

Whatever portion of your home you designate as the "place of business" is open to the BATFE during business hours. They cannot wander off and go searching through the rest of the house on a whim. As an FFL holder, you do not give up ANY personal rights. However, your license-related activities are subject to BATFE inspection. Since there is no "right" to hold an FFL, there are no rights surrendered, there is simply what is essentially a contractual agreement between the FFL and the BATFE: The BATFE agrees to issue a license, and in exchange the licensee agrees to follow certain rules and to allow certain inspections.

The 03 (C&R) FFL does not require a place of business. It does not, in fact, allow the licensee to conduct business. The purpose of a C&R FFL is to allow collectors to purchase collectible firearms without having to go through a regular (01) FFL. The C&R license may be used ONLY for eligible firearms. Once you have a C&R FFL, all eligible firearms you acquire must be entered in the bound book, even if you didn't use the C&R FFL to buy one. And any C&R firearm that's in your bound book may be transferred away from you only to another 03 C&R licensee, or to a regular 01 FFL.

[Rich-D]

Aguila Blanca, In response to your post!

I have been to the US Supreme Court as a Plaintiff on a Seizure of Documents unrelated to the business premises in a Liquor Law case. The incident occurred at my Private Club and attached residence. Civic Association Documents of which I was the President of, were seized without a Warrant or Probable Cause. The citations utilized by the Office of the Attorney General included BATF citations, as Liquor Enforcement and Firearm Enforcement have simular legal standards for Warrantless Administrative Searches.

Although, the agents clearly violated the law in seizing documents outside of their scope of authority, they were afforded qualified immunity. Due to the fact that they testified that they were not aware of a violation of rights. However, when the case was completed the two lead agents in the matter resigned, although each had over 12 years of service.

For ease of access I cite the Wiki Definition:

Qualified immunity is a doctrine in U.S. federal law that arises in cases brought against state officials under 42 U.S.C Section 1983 and against federal officials under Bivens v. Six Unknown Named Agents, 403 U.S. 388 (1971). Qualified immunity shields government officials from liability for the violation of an individual's federal constitutional rights. This grant of immunity is available to state or federal employees performing discretionary functions where their actions, even if later found to be unlawful, did not violate "clearly established law." The defense of qualified immunity was created by the U.S. Supreme Court, replacing a court's inquiry into a defendant's subjective state of mind with an inquiry into the objective reasonableness of the contested action. A government agent's liability in a federal civil rights lawsuit now no longer turns upon whether the defendant acted with "malice," but on whether a hypothetical reasonable person in the defendant's position would have known that his actions violated clearly established law.

If you desire to learn more, I will provide the source information on my case to your Attorney. Not every law is a matter of black and white, there are many gray areas! When political interests are involved, it is at times difficult to prevail.

With first hand knowledge as my guide, I stand by my statement, "Your premises may be searched without a warrant during regular business hours!."

Rich

[kenhwind]

And IRS can show up with a tape measure and an auditor.
In Florida you cannot have a retail business in your residence, therefore you cannot have an FFL business in your home.

[R.D.Wylie]

I know that in TEXAS you can operate a bus out of you home, but also being able to
provide a secure place is a must.I bought a CZ from a guy in FT.WORTH and all he
had was a safe a license hanging on the wall and a firearms ledger!! :eb: